MMAFrenzy.com Forums Topic: How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??

MMAFrenzy.com Forums Topic: How can Velasquez beat Carwin ?? http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin MMAFrenzy.com Forums Topic: How can Velasquez beat Carwin ?? en-US Sun, 22 Nov 2009 03:01:21 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.1 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/search.php Gunslinger on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1481 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:33:55 +0000 Gunslinger 1481@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ welcome! jcohl on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1468 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:19:49 +0000 jcohl 1468@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ Thanks, bigchris2328. I'm new here, and just trying to participate while avoiding any drama or pi$$ing anyone off. And the reason I come here is to be exposed to the viewpoints of other members of the MMA fan community. I got tired of hearing the same old stuff from the same old folks down at Dave & Busters or Hooters or at my own place when I host PPV's. MMAFrenzy has a great rep for intelligent MMA discourse, and in the last couple weeks I've seen how that rep was earned and is maintained. The feedback is always much appreciated as well. bigchris2328 on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1466 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:30:00 +0000 bigchris2328 1466@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ jcohl fighter bashing is when you say something like bj is f@g or likes to smoke the sausage or he sucks things like that, but if you say something like Carwin is going to murder Velasquez and then state why thats not fighter bashing, thats just making your opinion known. i have noticed in some of your posts that you say "im not trying to bash so and so, or I hope this isnt fighter bashing", I am just letting you know. you have yet to fighter bash and have some good insight and opinions and you are open to hearing other people's opinions as well. carls on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1461 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:45:15 +0000 carls 1461@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ Glad your all in dude weil consider this an internet handshake. But ya this is definately Carwins time the guys 34 and riding a great win streak with a $h!t load of KO's and Cain is 24 with a recent UD. People might think that the wager is unfair on my side but il love it when in one of your post your going on about lesnar this and lesnar that meanwhile people are looking at your avatar like WTF is this guy on. Then again theyl lok at mine and right off everything i post. Worth the trade to me lol. jcohl on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1460 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:12:43 +0000 jcohl 1460@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ carls - I'm still pretty new here, and I haven't really figured out how to attatch an avatar, but that sounds like an awesome bet, and I'm definitely in. In my time I've been known to wager a case of beer or a my head of hair on the outcome of a fight, but the DeathClutch thing is off the hook, had me laughing my @$$ off, and I'm looking forward to the fight now more than ever. Although to be honest, and I know this is going to upset Velasquez's fans and border on fighter-bashing, Carwin is going to murder Velasquez. I think Velasquez has a bright MMA future, but in the final analysis his time is a ways off, and for Shane Carwin his future is right now, particularly in a division looking for a solution to the Brock Lesnar problem... carls on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1458 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:47:39 +0000 carls 1458@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ Well I guess that settles it Carwin by KO first round :D Seriosly though jcohl your right about my gampleman. It will likely get Cain taken down by a smaller opponent. To me this just makes the fight that much more exciting. Thanks for all the feedback dude. How bout is Cain wins via sub or angles and precision striking i gotta change my avatar to the purple teletubby, buuuut if he wins with clinch work and grinding out a win by dec or late 3rd tko, you gotta change yours to mr. deathclutch himself. jcohl on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1452 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 00:06:48 +0000 jcohl 1452@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ carls - I normally am a big fan of "Couture-ing" your way to a win in the cage, and before Lesnar-Couture I would have agreed with your otherwise spot-on assessment on how a smaller, more athletic Velasquez could beat a monster like Carwin. Also, I think a lot of your stuff is on-point and very MMA savvy, but in this one instance I'm not fully convinced that your clinch theory will work on Carwin, and please allow me to explain why: If we think of this as a sort of an MMA equation, wherein we substitute Couture for Velasquez, and Lesnar for Carwin, we find that Couture 101 as you cleverly put it didn't work against a fighter [like Lesnar or Carwin] that's probably rocking a startling percentage of Neanderthal DNA in his genetic make-up. To my thinking, Carwin is a lot closer to Lesnar in terms of ability and sheer physical presence than Velasquez is to Couture in terms of skill in the clinch game and experience. After all, Couture has become the master of mixing cage generalship, dirty boxing, wrestling, and g-n-p, all the old Team Quest stuff, and translating them into championship wins. However it's taken him a lot of years to gain the timing, positioning, and skill-set needed to become the Natural. While I mostly agree that 90-100 days is probably not enough time for Velasquez to become a noteworthy submission grappler, I also feel that that same timeframe isn't sufficient for him to successfully complete a course in Couture 101. Maybe if Velasquez was an Xtreme Couture guy, and was working with the master himself day in and day out, I'd more strongly buy into carls' win theory for Velasquez, which I think is sound and as logical as fight theory can be in MMA. However as fr702 points out, Velasquez is an AKA guy, and I highly doubt they spend a whole lot of time working on dirty boxing and the other intricacies of the clinch game, no disrespect to them intended. Considering what sort of fighters AKA produces, I thought my "fight smarter not harder" theory was a better "fit" for Velasquez than carls' "Couture 101" theory, but either way we're going to find out which of us is closer to the final result in whats looking like one **** of a good fight. And again, carls, no disrespect to you intended here. After reading your post I tend to agree with you that the longer the fight is standing, the closer Velasquez gets to getting KTFO'ed, and attempting to submission grapple Caveman Carwin puts him in a $#!t-awful position on the mat. Honestly, and I think we both agree on this, Velasquez is nine kinds of screwed in his upcoming bout. If he were to take my advice, he's likely to get knocked into the middle of next week dancing around Carwin, or spend 15 painful and grueling minutes under an undefeated wrecking ball. If Velasquez takes carls' advice and tries to close with Carwin, IMO he risks getting run up into the cage, Greco-thrown or otherwise taken down, and g-n-p'ed until the ref stops the fight or the clock ends the match and Velasquez gets handed a wicked beating and an UD loss. Simply put, if the Natural himself couldn't "Couture" his way to a "W" against a human silverback like Brock Lesnar, who is a less experienced fighter than Shane Carwin, then how the **** is Cain Velasquez supposed to pull this off against a jungle rumbler like Carwin? carls on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1449 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:13:15 +0000 carls 1449@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ I know I posted this 3 days ago guys and im kind of cheating but I thought this was a much better place for it. To be honest I dont see Cain winning this fight. But were here to talk about how hes gonna get the "W" not discuss when hes gonna come to. I love your stuff Jcohl but i got to dissagree with you 100%. Well except fot the taking it into the later rounds part. Plain and simple Cain cannot stand and trade with Carwin, becasue every second that they are on their feet it is closer to the end for Mr. Brown Pride. Sure he could catch him , sure he could run away for two rounds and try and tire him out. But by doing this he is gonna be in the danger zone and in a sport where wins are about as important as your life you just cant do that. Right now the two ways It seems that someone "could" beat Shane is either taking him later in the rounds which are alien to him. Or by putting a BJJ clinic on him and making him say uncle. Cain I highly doubt is gonna be doing any of the latter since he is no Gracie on the matt and showed very little sub offence against one of the worst grapplers in the division. He can however do the other because he has showed to have some of the best cardio in the HW div. We dont know how good Carwin's endurance is. We dont, but we do know how good his punching power and GnP is. So by logic Cain should test the unknown waters that is Carwins gas tank. Surviving past the first few minutes with this behemoth though, has proved to be as easy as kissing your elbow. But were here to get the win and we must think positive. Now not only do we wanna get this guy to the later rounds, we want to make sure that he is tired when he gets there. And using angles and well timed strikes are not going to do that. This guy is a Jackson fighter his Cardio will hold up to that. But if there is something that tires out everybody and slows your punches to(thanks GSP) is the clinch. All of Shanes weight is in his upper body and if you want to get those muscles pumping and tire this guy out. Clinch with him. Hard. I belive that here alot of Carwins power will be neutralized. The guy can knock out Gonzaga with a two inch punch let alone a full swing. So dont give him either. Then see how fast his hands are come the second round. If Shane is gassed then Cain should go for the takedown and start realy wearing on him, and scoring points. If not give him another couples minute of Couture 101 and take him down then. Cause this round and the next are must haves for Velasquez in order to get the decision. Submission attempts are just gonna find Cain on his back with King Kong's cousin on top of him. Leading to a TKO. Plus for CAin to all of a suddeen aquire a great ground game it will require alot of his training time, which i think should be more evenly divided between, clinch work with bigger fighters, staying out of reach, good sweeps from the clinch and further develpoing his awesome base when on top. I have thought alot about this fight even before it was signed and to me this is the only "logical" way for Velasquez to grab a victory. Nightmare on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1444 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:40:55 +0000 Nightmare 1444@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ even though i still believe carwin i think the loser will still work his way back up to title shot/s fr702 on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1443 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:15:55 +0000 fr702 1443@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ Interesting, I don't think that Cain has what it takes to beat Shane, I also think that with Cain training at AKA, Bob would have already tought him "basic" subs and sub defense.. I also agree that Cain should bring in a top level JJ guy to roll with Cain, Helll Mir rolled with Maia and Mir has rather good jitz himself.. I think the way that Cain will beat Shane is by getting a "flash Ko" and dropping into some crazy gnp or by decision... I do agree that Cain needs to somehow attempt to take this fight into the 3rd... Cain doesn't have the wrestling to take down Shane so he has to try and tire the big man and take advantage of the fact that Shane goes all out for short amounts of time.... **** Cain should hit him square in the nose and see how that works out for him.. Shane just got it repaired and well whynot its worth a shot imo... Cain is an awesome fighter and will be great in awhile but he needs to step his training up imo and well honestly I don't see him getting past Shane, but crazier shhhh has happend in the octagon remember Matt Serra was once the WW champion! Nightmare on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1441 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:31:47 +0000 Nightmare 1441@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ NOT A CHANCE! haha i think carwin will knock him out. i don't think velasquez will change his training since heck it has been working so far. jcohl on "How can Velasquez beat Carwin ??" http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/how-can-velasquez-beat-carwin#post-1440 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:34:08 +0000 jcohl 1440@http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/ From what I've been able to pick up from various comments on the subject, it doesn't seem like the majority of the "frenzied" think much of Cain Velasquez's chances of beating Shane Carwin in their impending match-up. That being understood, I started thinking of what Velasquez could do in the 3 months or so until he steps into the cage with a HW who seems to be about as frighteningly strong as a character out of the X-Men or something. As it stands now, Velasquez's existing skill-set doesn't seem to be enough to get him past Carwin, and into a fight with either the Couture-Nog winner, or maybe even the Mir-Lesnar winner. As far as I can determine, Velasquez seems to have the advantage in athleticsm and overall speed. Carwin obviously has the "Hulk smash!" advantage, the experience advantage with nearly twice as many fights as his opponent, plus the psychological advantage of being regarded as generally more bad-@$$. It's hard to determine Carwin's level of cardio because he tends to not dawdle end thing suddenly in the cage, so maybe Velasquez has an edge there as well. Going into the fight, Velasquez has to be thinking to himself, "how do I beat this guy?" The answer IMO is both obviously simple and as of yet nearly impossible to do. Velasquez needs to keep his distance from Carwin, keep him off-balance with measured, accurate strikes, and try to wear him out and drag the fight into the 2nd or 3rd round, if he can make it that far. Once Carwin tires, maybe Velasquez can score a takedown of his own, which might be more effective than it looks on the surface because not a lot of wrestler-types are good off of their backs, particularly when gassing. Once grounded, Velasquez should try something relatively unexpected, like a submission. Yes, a submission. I know how that sounds, but please hear me out before laughing at me. I'm not 100% certain as to Velasquez's ground skills, but he has 3 months or so before he steps into the cage with an opponent who [to date] has appeared to be more monster than man. Velasquez by all accounts is a hard worker, more intelligent than generally given credit for, and is obviously a fast-learner, considering he's had a half-dozen fights and is already in contention. In 90-100 days Velasquez could really develop some solid submission fundamentals, especially if he seeks out someone from the submission grappling ranks, like maybe Jeff Monson, if he was willing. Or he could head out to the Islands and train with someone like Ronald Jhun or Rylan Lizares, who I believe is a Gracie Technic's guy and currently ranked number 1 in Hawaii. They are also both coming off of facing each other, so one or the other might be available to roll with. I know there are always going to be nay-sayers and doubters, but this fight is going to happen, and there is just no way that Velasquez, with all due respect, is going to out-power or out-wrestle Carwin, at least not in the first 7-8 minutes of the fight. But if Velasquez can take Carwin deeper into a fight than he's been before with superior cardio, keep him guessing by mixing up his strikes with superior speed, and hit a takedown or throw maybe against or just off of the cage, he could catch Carwin in something taught to him between now and 24 October [I think], something he hasn't shown in the cage before, and something totally unexpected and kept on the downlow from the MMA media. I know its a longshot, but I don't see another way of Velasquez beating Carwin at this stage of their careers. That is of course assuming that both come into the fight healthy, focused, and out of good solid training camps, which has been pretty much the story of both of these HW's in their MMA runs. If anyone has a different or better solution for Velasquez, other than maybe waving Kryptonite in Carwin's face, I'd love to hear it.